[Advisors] [NA-Discuss] The TLD-less NYC
michael gurstein
gurstein at gmail.com
Fri, 2 Dec 2011 11:01:48 +0600
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Evan,
=20
As it happens, right now I'm sitting in a session at the e-Asia =
conference
in Dhaka, Bangladesh listening to a Prof. from Singapore explaining how =
the
prosperity of Singapore is in significant part built on their integrated
digital platform, having just finished a discussion with someone from =
.ORG
(PIR) explaining how their application for the .NGO domain will provide =
a
digital platform globally for providing support for the NGO community
globally.
=20
There seems somehow to be a disconnect between what you are saying below =
and
what these colleagues have been telling me (and others) at considerable
length. =20
=20
I have no way of independently verifying any of the claims--yours, =
theirs,
Tom Lowenhaupt's...=20
=20
But, the fellow talking about Singapore has just said that for them the =
most
significant factors are at the "business layer" i.e. when you are =
dealing
with what the enterprise does building on the technical etc.. layers. =
When
we talk about TLD's (i.e. business naming/branding) we are I think =
talking
about the very core of the current business models incluidng dare I say =
for
both the public sector and the not-for-profit sectors.
=20
So let me say that without opting for one position over another I'm
skeptical of your skepticism and I would be a whole lot more comfortable =
if
folks such as yourself who in theory are "representing" folks such as =
myself
in the context of an increasingly central agency of "governance" in the
digital age i.e. ICANN were rather more exploratory and deliberative in
their approach to these issues including dare I say exploring some =
possible
social/political/cultural/economic impact scenarios as they might play =
out
vis-a-vis these naming issues.
=20
Best,
=20
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: evanleibovitch@gmail.com [mailto:evanleibovitch@gmail.com] On =
Behalf
Of Evan Leibovitch
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:02 AM
To: michael gurstein
Cc: Thompson, Darlene; Garth Graham; Advisors Advisors; Thomas =
Lowenhaupt
Subject: Re: [Advisors] [NA-Discuss] The TLD-less NYC
Hi there.
Sorry to be a month late to the game, but I just saw this tucked away in =
a
Gmail side folder. I wasn't deliberately staying silent.
I'm more than happy to engage on the issue or to answer any questions =
about
my positions on the "city TLD" issue, or others related. I'm right now =
just
finding myself becoming increasingly cynical about the social benefits =
of a
glut of new gTLDs as I get more deeply involved with ICANN. And while I =
hate
being the downer in the room, TLDs will cost plenty to apply for and =
even
more to run. They will have their benefits but should be extremely =
carefully
considered and proponents must go in eyes wide open.
I can just tell you from my PoV that if there was a campaign for a =
.toronto
I would be very strongly opposed if the effort was dependent *at all* on
public funds (or even on traditional community funding sources such as =
the
United Way). It has yet to be demonstrated to me what the value would be =
of
using "www.blah.vancouver" for a domain (as opposed to, say,
"blah.vancouver.ca").
Some other comments below...
On 24 October 2011 13:17, michael gurstein <gurstein@gmail.com> wrote:
=20
Well actually they do exist in something of a bubble i.e. those folks in
civil society who will have heard of NARALO etc.etc. which is dare I =
say, a
self-selected nsubset of a subset of a subset...
I would humbly disagree. ICANN At-Large has in some (but not all) areas
taken pains to be more than just civil society, and my own involvement =
is
evidence of that effort. My only previous governance activity culminated =
in
my group's opposition to the civil society statement at WSIS.
But i digress...
=20
In Vancouver I could see for example the Vancouver Foundation, =
Children's
Aid, the Vancouver School Board, the Vancouver Library and specifically =
the
Carnegie Library (that deals with those with severe problems, the =
homeless
etc.) as being folks I would be interested in consulting on a .vancouver =
and
if we are talking about basic framework issues or decisions impacting on
that I think that the mega equivalents might be useful as interlocutors.
I guess.... but I question the end-game. The groups listed above would =
(in
my eyes at least) see zero added value in using *for example)
"www.library.vancouver" instead of the quite useful "vpl.ca" used now.
I still maintain that this ... ie, the DNS ... is little more than a
technically sophisticated directory. Creating more phonebooks doesn't =
make
people more interesting to call. Creating new domain names won't make
websites more interesting to visit (and in fact could just become the =
source
of new places for squatters and speculators to plant a whole new set of
"this space for sale" pages...)
If someone wants to make a commercial venture out of a new directory, =
it's
their money to lose. As a taxpayer who's seen the inside of the ICANN
sausage factory, I'd be preferring that the half-million (at least!) on
startup cost be better spent on improved bus frequency or more daycare
slots. So long as there is space in .ca -- and, generally, there is =
because
of the residency requirements -- the need for relief valves are far less
than they are for, say, dot-com.
Painting this as a community-involvement issue is IMO a smokescreen to =
mask
the utter unsustainability of most TLD proposals once the emotional =
element
(ie, the collective pride/ego in having "one's own" TLD) is stripped =
away.
In any case, what I say doesn't really matter beyond simply warning that
there be dragons here. If someone could make a case for any Canadian =
city to
have its own TLD I'm eager to hear it, and if someone gets investors for =
one
I'll wish them well. My concern comes from anyone who doesn't believe in =
a
TLD enough to cut into their own budgets for it, and turns to =
philanthopists
or the public purse to pay for something that I believe is little more =
than
an Internet frill. If you're going to talk about bubbles and =
inclusivity,
don't stop at community groups, get involved anyone who's concerned =
about
civic spending priorioties.
- Evan
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D952455103-02122011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial>Evan,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D952455103-02122011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D952455103-02122011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>As it=20
happens, right now I'm sitting in a session at the e-Asia conference in =
Dhaka,=20
Bangladesh listening to a Prof. from Singapore explaining how the =
prosperity of=20
Singapore is in significant part built on their integrated digital =
platform,=20
having just finished a discussion with someone from .ORG (PIR) =
explaining how=20
their application for the .NGO domain will provide a digital platform =
globally=20
for providing support for the NGO community =
globally.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D952455103-02122011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D952455103-02122011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>There=20
seems somehow to be a disconnect between what you are saying below and =
what=20
these colleagues have been telling me (and others) at considerable =
length. =20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D952455103-02122011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D952455103-02122011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>I=20
have no way of independently verifying any of the claims--yours, =
theirs,=20
Tom Lowenhaupt's... </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D952455103-02122011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D952455103-02122011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>But,=20
the fellow talking about Singapore has just said that for them the most=20
significant factors are at the "business layer" i.e. when you are =
dealing with=20
what the enterprise does building on the technical etc.. layers. =
When we=20
talk about TLD's (i.e. business naming/branding) we are I think talking =
about=20
the very core of the current business models incluidng dare I say for =
both the=20
public sector and the not-for-profit sectors.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D952455103-02122011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D952455103-02122011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>So let=20
me say that without opting for one position over another I'm skeptical =
of your=20
skepticism and I would be a whole lot more comfortable if folks such as =
yourself=20
who in theory are "representing" folks such as myself in the context of =
an=20
increasingly central agency of "governance" in the digital age i.e. =
ICANN were=20
rather more exploratory and deliberative in their approach to these =
issues=20
including dare I say exploring some possible =
social/political/cultural/economic=20
impact scenarios as they might play out vis-a-vis these naming=20
issues.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D952455103-02122011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D952455103-02122011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial>Best,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D952455103-02122011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D952455103-02122011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial>Mike</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=3Dltr>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr lang=3Den-us class=3DOutlookMessageHeader =
align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2=20
face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
evanleibovitch@gmail.com [mailto:evanleibovitch@gmail.com] <B>On =
Behalf Of=20
</B>Evan Leibovitch<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 02, 2011 5:02=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> michael gurstein<BR><B>Cc:</B> Thompson, Darlene; =
Garth=20
Graham; Advisors Advisors; Thomas Lowenhaupt<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Advisors]=20
[NA-Discuss] The TLD-less NYC<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Hi there.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Sorry to be a month late to the game, but I just saw this tucked =
away in=20
a Gmail side folder. I wasn't deliberately staying silent.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I'm more than happy to engage on the issue or to answer any =
questions=20
about my positions on the "city TLD" issue, or others related. I'm =
right now=20
just finding myself becoming increasingly cynical about the social =
benefits of=20
a glut of new gTLDs as I get more deeply involved with ICANN. And =
while I hate=20
being the downer in the room, TLDs will cost plenty to apply for and =
even more=20
to run. They will have their benefits but should be extremely =
carefully=20
considered and proponents must go in eyes wide open.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I can just tell you from my PoV that if there was a campaign for =
a=20
.toronto I would be very strongly opposed if the effort was dependent =
*at all*=20
on public funds (or even on traditional community funding sources such =
as the=20
United Way). It has yet to be demonstrated to me what the value would =
be of=20
using "www.blah.vancouver" for a domain (as opposed to, say, "<A=20
href=3D"http://blah.vancouver.ca">blah.vancouver.ca</A>").</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Some other comments below...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On 24 October 2011 13:17, michael gurstein =
<SPAN=20
dir=3Dltr><<A=20
href=3D"mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> =
wrote:<BR>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"=20
class=3Dgmail_quote>Well actually they do exist in something of a =
bubble i.e.=20
those folks in civil society who will have heard of NARALO =
etc.etc.=20
which is dare I say, a self-selected nsubset of a subset of a=20
subset...<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I would humbly disagree. ICANN At-Large has in some (but not all) =
areas=20
taken pains to be more than just civil society, and my own involvement =
is=20
evidence of that effort. My only previous governance activity =
culminated in my=20
group's opposition to the civil society statement at WSIS.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>But i digress...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"=20
class=3Dgmail_quote>In Vancouver I could see for example the Vancouver =
Foundation, Children's Aid, the Vancouver School Board, the =
Vancouver=20
Library and specifically the Carnegie Library (that deals with =
those=20
with severe problems, the homeless etc.) as being folks I would =
be=20
interested in consulting on a .vancouver and if we are talking =
about=20
basic framework issues or decisions impacting on that I think =
that the=20
mega equivalents might be useful as interlocutors.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I guess.... but I question the end-game. The groups listed above =
would=20
(in my eyes at least) see zero added value in using *for example)=20
"www.library.vancouver" instead of the quite useful "<A=20
href=3D"http://vpl.ca">vpl.ca</A>" used now.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I still maintain that this ... ie, the DNS ... is little more =
than a=20
technically sophisticated directory. Creating more phonebooks doesn't =
make=20
people more interesting to call. Creating new domain names won't make =
websites=20
more interesting to visit (and in fact could just become the source of =
new=20
places for squatters and speculators to plant a whole new set of "this =
space=20
for sale" pages...)</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>If someone wants to make a commercial venture out of a new =
directory,=20
it's their money to lose. As a taxpayer who's seen the inside of the =
ICANN=20
sausage factory, I'd be preferring that the half-million (at least!) =
on=20
startup cost be better spent on improved bus frequency or more daycare =
slots.=20
So long as there is space in .ca -- and, generally, there is because =
of the=20
residency requirements -- the need for relief valves are far less than =
they=20
are for, say, dot-com.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Painting this as a community-involvement issue is IMO a =
smokescreen to=20
mask the utter unsustainability of most TLD proposals once the =
emotional=20
element (ie, the collective pride/ego in having "one's own" TLD) is =
stripped=20
away.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>In any case, what I say doesn't really matter beyond simply =
warning that=20
there be dragons here. If someone could make a case for any Canadian =
city to=20
have its own TLD I'm eager to hear it, and if someone gets investors =
for one=20
I'll wish them well. My concern comes from anyone who doesn't believe =
in a TLD=20
enough to cut into their own budgets for it, and turns to =
philanthopists or=20
the public purse to pay for something that I believe is little more =
than an=20
Internet frill. If you're going to talk about bubbles and inclusivity, =
don't=20
stop at community groups, get involved anyone who's concerned about =
civic=20
spending priorioties.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>- Evan</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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