[Advisors] Re: [NA-Discuss] The TLD-less NYC
Thomas Lowenhaupt
toml at communisphere.com
Fri, 02 Dec 2011 01:24:31 -0500
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Evan,
When you say,
>I'm right now just finding myself becoming increasingly cynical about
the social benefits of a glut of new gTLDs as I get more deeply involved
with ICANN. And while I hate being the downer in the room, TLDs will
cost plenty to apply for and even more to run. They will have their
benefits but should be extremely carefully considered and proponents
must go in eyes wide open.
I might agree.
But that has little to do with a city-TLD for New York's 19,000,000
residents. I think we need to unpack this TLD issue and look at the
different elements.
Tom
On 12/2/2011 1:10 AM, Thomas Lowenhaupt wrote:
> Evan,
>
> Your response seems to focus on Vancouver and Canada. I'm interested
> in exploring the advantages a TLD might offer to the 19,000,000
> residents of the New York City region. Spend a few hours on our wiki.
> And think about our local needs, not just Canada.
>
> Best,
>
> Tom Lowenhaupt
>
>
> On 12/1/2011 6:02 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
>> Hi there.
>>
>> Sorry to be a month late to the game, but I just saw this tucked away
>> in a Gmail side folder. I wasn't deliberately staying silent.
>>
>> I'm more than happy to engage on the issue or to answer any questions
>> about my positions on the "city TLD" issue, or others related. I'm
>> right now just finding myself becoming increasingly cynical about the
>> social benefits of a glut of new gTLDs as I get more deeply involved
>> with ICANN. And while I hate being the downer in the room, TLDs will
>> cost plenty to apply for and even more to run. They will have their
>> benefits but should be extremely carefully considered and proponents
>> must go in eyes wide open.
>>
>> I can just tell you from my PoV that if there was a campaign for a
>> .toronto I would be very strongly opposed if the effort was dependent
>> *at all* on public funds (or even on traditional community funding
>> sources such as the United Way). It has yet to be demonstrated to me
>> what the value would be of using "www.blah.vancouver" for a domain
>> (as opposed to, say, "blah.vancouver.ca <http://blah.vancouver.ca>").
>>
>> Some other comments below...
>>
>>
>> On 24 October 2011 13:17, michael gurstein <gurstein@gmail.com
>> <mailto:gurstein@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Well actually they do exist in something of a bubble i.e. those
>> folks in civil society who will have heard of NARALO etc.etc.
>> which is dare I say, a self-selected nsubset of a subset of a
>> subset...
>>
>>
>> I would humbly disagree. ICANN At-Large has in some (but not all)
>> areas taken pains to be more than just civil society, and my own
>> involvement is evidence of that effort. My only previous governance
>> activity culminated in my group's opposition to the civil society
>> statement at WSIS.
>>
>> But i digress...
>>
>> In Vancouver I could see for example the Vancouver Foundation,
>> Children's Aid, the Vancouver School Board, the Vancouver Library
>> and specifically the Carnegie Library (that deals with those with
>> severe problems, the homeless etc.) as being folks I would be
>> interested in consulting on a .vancouver and if we are talking
>> about basic framework issues or decisions impacting on that I
>> think that the mega equivalents might be useful as interlocutors.
>>
>>
>> I guess.... but I question the end-game. The groups listed above
>> would (in my eyes at least) see zero added value in using *for
>> example) "www.library.vancouver" instead of the quite useful "vpl.ca
>> <http://vpl.ca>" used now.
>>
>> I still maintain that this ... ie, the DNS ... is little more than a
>> technically sophisticated directory. Creating more phonebooks doesn't
>> make people more interesting to call. Creating new domain names won't
>> make websites more interesting to visit (and in fact could just
>> become the source of new places for squatters and speculators to
>> plant a whole new set of "this space for sale" pages...)
>>
>> If someone wants to make a commercial venture out of a new directory,
>> it's their money to lose. As a taxpayer who's seen the inside of the
>> ICANN sausage factory, I'd be preferring that the half-million (at
>> least!) on startup cost be better spent on improved bus frequency or
>> more daycare slots. So long as there is space in .ca -- and,
>> generally, there is because of the residency requirements -- the need
>> for relief valves are far less than they are for, say, dot-com.
>>
>> Painting this as a community-involvement issue is IMO a smokescreen
>> to mask the utter unsustainability of most TLD proposals once the
>> emotional element (ie, the collective pride/ego in having "one's own"
>> TLD) is stripped away.
>>
>> In any case, what I say doesn't really matter beyond simply warning
>> that there be dragons here. If someone could make a case for any
>> Canadian city to have its own TLD I'm eager to hear it, and if
>> someone gets investors for one I'll wish them well. My concern comes
>> from anyone who doesn't believe in a TLD enough to cut into their own
>> budgets for it, and turns to philanthopists or the public purse to
>> pay for something that I believe is little more than an Internet
>> frill. If you're going to talk about bubbles and inclusivity, don't
>> stop at community groups, get involved anyone who's concerned about
>> civic spending priorioties.
>>
>> - Evan
>>
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Evan,<br>
<br>
When you say,<br>
<br>
>I'm right now just finding myself becoming increasingly cynical
about the social benefits of a glut of new gTLDs as I get more
deeply involved with ICANN. And while I hate being the downer in the
room, TLDs will cost plenty to apply for and even more to run. They
will have their benefits but should be extremely carefully
considered and proponents must go in eyes wide open.<br>
<br>
I might agree. <br>
<br>
But that has little to do with a city-TLD for New York's 19,000,000
residents. I think we need to unpack this TLD issue and look at the
different elements. <br>
<br>
Tom<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/2/2011 1:10 AM, Thomas Lowenhaupt wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4ED86BC8.8090401@communisphere.com"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
Evan,<br>
<br>
Your response seems to focus on Vancouver and Canada. I'm
interested in exploring the advantages a TLD might offer to the
19,000,000 residents of the New York City region. Spend a few
hours on our wiki. And think about our local needs, not just
Canada. <br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Tom Lowenhaupt<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/1/2011 6:02 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMguqh1ZHDPzwPPF1Fp+-YSHq1bP__k_+h3PdgeLQM2FFkdvNA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>Hi there.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sorry to be a month late to the game, but I just saw this
tucked away in a Gmail side folder. I wasn't deliberately
staying silent.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm more than happy to engage on the issue or to answer any
questions about my positions on the "city TLD" issue, or
others related. I'm right now just finding myself becoming
increasingly cynical about the social benefits of a glut of
new gTLDs as I get more deeply involved with ICANN. And while
I hate being the downer in the room, TLDs will cost plenty to
apply for and even more to run. They will have their benefits
but should be extremely carefully considered and proponents
must go in eyes wide open.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I can just tell you from my PoV that if there was a
campaign for a .toronto I would be very strongly opposed if
the effort was dependent *at all* on public funds (or even on
traditional community funding sources such as the United Way).
It has yet to be demonstrated to me what the value would be of
using "<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.blah.vancouver">www.blah.vancouver</a>" for
a domain (as opposed to, say, "<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://blah.vancouver.ca">blah.vancouver.ca</a>").</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Some other comments below...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 24 October 2011 13:17, michael
gurstein <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Well
actually they do exist in something of a bubble i.e. those
folks in civil society who will have heard of NARALO
etc.etc. which is dare I say, a self-selected nsubset of a
subset of a subset...<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would humbly disagree. ICANN At-Large has in some (but
not all) areas taken pains to be more than just civil
society, and my own involvement is evidence of that effort.
My only previous governance activity culminated in my
group's opposition to the civil society statement at WSIS.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But i digress...</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> In
Vancouver I could see for example the Vancouver Foundation,
Children's Aid, the Vancouver School Board, the Vancouver
Library and specifically the Carnegie Library (that deals
with those with severe problems, the homeless etc.) as being
folks I would be interested in consulting on a .vancouver
and if we are talking about basic framework issues or
decisions impacting on that I think that the mega
equivalents might be useful as interlocutors.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I guess.... but I question the end-game. The groups
listed above would (in my eyes at least) see zero added
value in using *for example) "<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.library.vancouver">www.library.vancouver</a>"
instead of the quite useful "<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://vpl.ca">vpl.ca</a>" used now.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I still maintain that this ... ie, the DNS ... is little
more than a technically sophisticated directory. Creating
more phonebooks doesn't make people more interesting to
call. Creating new domain names won't make websites more
interesting to visit (and in fact could just become the
source of new places for squatters and speculators to plant
a whole new set of "this space for sale" pages...)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If someone wants to make a commercial venture out of a
new directory, it's their money to lose. As a taxpayer who's
seen the inside of the ICANN sausage factory, I'd be
preferring that the half-million (at least!) on startup cost
be better spent on improved bus frequency or more daycare
slots. So long as there is space in .ca -- and, generally,
there is because of the residency requirements -- the need
for relief valves are far less than they are for, say,
dot-com.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Painting this as a community-involvement issue is IMO a
smokescreen to mask the utter unsustainability of most TLD
proposals once the emotional element (ie, the collective
pride/ego in having "one's own" TLD) is stripped away.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In any case, what I say doesn't really matter beyond
simply warning that there be dragons here. If someone could
make a case for any Canadian city to have its own TLD I'm
eager to hear it, and if someone gets investors for one I'll
wish them well. My concern comes from anyone who doesn't
believe in a TLD enough to cut into their own budgets for
it, and turns to philanthopists or the public purse to pay
for something that I believe is little more than an Internet
frill. If you're going to talk about bubbles and
inclusivity, don't stop at community groups, get involved
anyone who's concerned about civic spending priorioties.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- Evan</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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