[Advisors] [NA-Discuss] The TLD-less NYC

Thomas Lowenhaupt toml at communisphere.com
Fri, 02 Dec 2011 01:10:16 -0500


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Evan,

Your response seems to focus on Vancouver and Canada. I'm interested in 
exploring the advantages a TLD might offer to the 19,000,000 residents 
of the New York City region. Spend a few hours on our wiki. And think 
about our local needs, not just Canada.

Best,

Tom Lowenhaupt


On 12/1/2011 6:02 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
> Hi there.
>
> Sorry to be a month late to the game, but I just saw this tucked away 
> in a Gmail side folder. I wasn't deliberately staying silent.
>
> I'm more than happy to engage on the issue or to answer any questions 
> about my positions on the "city TLD" issue, or others related. I'm 
> right now just finding myself becoming increasingly cynical about the 
> social benefits of a glut of new gTLDs as I get more deeply involved 
> with ICANN. And while I hate being the downer in the room, TLDs will 
> cost plenty to apply for and even more to run. They will have their 
> benefits but should be extremely carefully considered and proponents 
> must go in eyes wide open.
>
> I can just tell you from my PoV that if there was a campaign for a 
> .toronto I would be very strongly opposed if the effort was dependent 
> *at all* on public funds (or even on traditional community funding 
> sources such as the United Way). It has yet to be demonstrated to me 
> what the value would be of using "www.blah.vancouver" for a domain (as 
> opposed to, say, "blah.vancouver.ca <http://blah.vancouver.ca>").
>
> Some other comments below...
>
>
> On 24 October 2011 13:17, michael gurstein <gurstein@gmail.com 
> <mailto:gurstein@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Well actually they do exist in something of a bubble i.e. those
>     folks in civil society who will have heard of NARALO etc.etc.
>     which is dare I say, a self-selected nsubset of a subset of a
>     subset...
>
>
> I would humbly disagree. ICANN At-Large has in some (but not all) 
> areas taken pains to be more than just civil society, and my own 
> involvement is evidence of that effort. My only previous governance 
> activity culminated in my group's opposition to the civil society 
> statement at WSIS.
>
> But i digress...
>
>     In Vancouver I could see for example the Vancouver Foundation,
>     Children's Aid, the Vancouver School Board, the Vancouver Library
>     and specifically the Carnegie Library (that deals with those with
>     severe problems, the homeless etc.) as being folks I would be
>     interested in consulting on a .vancouver and if we are talking
>     about basic framework issues or decisions impacting on that I
>     think that the mega equivalents might be useful as interlocutors.
>
>
> I guess.... but I question the end-game. The groups listed above would 
> (in my eyes at least) see zero added value in using *for example) 
> "www.library.vancouver" instead of the quite useful "vpl.ca 
> <http://vpl.ca>" used now.
>
> I still maintain that this ... ie, the DNS ... is little more than a 
> technically sophisticated directory. Creating more phonebooks doesn't 
> make people more interesting to call. Creating new domain names won't 
> make websites more interesting to visit (and in fact could just become 
> the source of new places for squatters and speculators to plant a 
> whole new set of "this space for sale" pages...)
>
> If someone wants to make a commercial venture out of a new directory, 
> it's their money to lose. As a taxpayer who's seen the inside of the 
> ICANN sausage factory, I'd be preferring that the half-million (at 
> least!) on startup cost be better spent on improved bus frequency or 
> more daycare slots. So long as there is space in .ca -- and, 
> generally, there is because of the residency requirements -- the need 
> for relief valves are far less than they are for, say, dot-com.
>
> Painting this as a community-involvement issue is IMO a smokescreen to 
> mask the utter unsustainability of most TLD proposals once the 
> emotional element (ie, the collective pride/ego in having "one's own" 
> TLD) is stripped away.
>
> In any case, what I say doesn't really matter beyond simply warning 
> that there be dragons here. If someone could make a case for any 
> Canadian city to have its own TLD I'm eager to hear it, and if someone 
> gets investors for one I'll wish them well. My concern comes from 
> anyone who doesn't believe in a TLD enough to cut into their own 
> budgets for it, and turns to philanthopists or the public purse to pay 
> for something that I believe is little more than an Internet frill. If 
> you're going to talk about bubbles and inclusivity, don't stop at 
> community groups, get involved anyone who's concerned about civic 
> spending priorioties.
>
> - Evan
>

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    Evan,<br>
    <br>
    Your response seems to focus on Vancouver and Canada. I'm interested
    in exploring the advantages a TLD might offer to the 19,000,000
    residents of the New York City region. Spend a few hours on our
    wiki. And think about our local needs, not just Canada. <br>
    <br>
    Best,<br>
    <br>
    Tom Lowenhaupt<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    On 12/1/2011 6:02 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAMguqh1ZHDPzwPPF1Fp+-YSHq1bP__k_+h3PdgeLQM2FFkdvNA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div>Hi there.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Sorry to be a month late to the game, but I just saw this
        tucked away in a Gmail side folder. I wasn't deliberately
        staying silent.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I'm more than happy to engage on the issue or to answer any
        questions about my positions on the "city TLD" issue, or others
        related. I'm right now just finding myself becoming increasingly
        cynical about the social benefits of a glut of new gTLDs as I
        get more deeply involved with ICANN. And while I hate being the
        downer in the room, TLDs will cost plenty to apply for and even
        more to run. They will have their benefits but should be
        extremely carefully considered and proponents must go in eyes
        wide open.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I can just tell you from my PoV that if there was a campaign
        for a .toronto I would be very strongly opposed if the effort
        was dependent *at all* on public funds (or even on traditional
        community funding sources such as the United Way). It has yet to
        be demonstrated to me what the value would be of using
        "<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.blah.vancouver">www.blah.vancouver</a>" for a domain (as opposed to, say, "<a
          moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://blah.vancouver.ca">blah.vancouver.ca</a>").</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Some other comments below...</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">On 24 October 2011 13:17, michael
        gurstein <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
        wrote:<br>
        <div> </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Well
          actually they do exist in something of a bubble i.e. those
          folks in civil society who will have heard of NARALO etc.etc.
          which is dare I say, a self-selected nsubset of a subset of a
          subset...<br>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I would humbly disagree. ICANN At-Large has in some (but
          not all) areas taken pains to be more than just civil society,
          and my own involvement is evidence of that effort. My only
          previous governance activity culminated in my
          group's opposition to the civil society statement at WSIS.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>But i digress...</div>
        <div> </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
          In Vancouver I could see for example the Vancouver Foundation,
          Children's Aid, the Vancouver School Board, the Vancouver
          Library and specifically the Carnegie Library (that deals with
          those with severe problems, the homeless etc.) as being folks
          I would be interested in consulting on a .vancouver and if we
          are talking about basic framework issues or decisions
          impacting on that I think that the mega equivalents might be
          useful as interlocutors.<br>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I guess.... but I question the end-game. The groups listed
          above would (in my eyes at least) see zero added value in
          using *for example) "<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.library.vancouver">www.library.vancouver</a>" instead of the
          quite useful "<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://vpl.ca">vpl.ca</a>"
          used now.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I still maintain that this ... ie, the DNS ... is little
          more than a technically sophisticated directory. Creating more
          phonebooks doesn't make people more interesting to call.
          Creating new domain names won't make websites more interesting
          to visit (and in fact could just become the source of new
          places for squatters and speculators to plant a whole new set
          of "this space for sale" pages...)</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>If someone wants to make a commercial venture out of a new
          directory, it's their money to lose. As a taxpayer who's seen
          the inside of the ICANN sausage factory, I'd be preferring
          that the half-million (at least!) on startup cost be better
          spent on improved bus frequency or more daycare slots. So long
          as there is space in .ca -- and, generally, there is because
          of the residency requirements -- the need for relief valves
          are far less than they are for, say, dot-com.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Painting this as a community-involvement issue is IMO a
          smokescreen to mask the utter unsustainability of most TLD
          proposals once the emotional element (ie, the collective
          pride/ego in having "one's own" TLD) is stripped away.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>In any case, what I say doesn't really matter beyond simply
          warning that there be dragons here. If someone could make a
          case for any Canadian city to have its own TLD I'm eager to
          hear it, and if someone gets investors for one I'll wish them
          well. My concern comes from anyone who doesn't believe in a
          TLD enough to cut into their own budgets for it, and turns to
          philanthopists or the public purse to pay for something that I
          believe is little more than an Internet frill. If you're going
          to talk about bubbles and inclusivity, don't stop at community
          groups, get involved anyone who's concerned about civic
          spending priorioties.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>- Evan</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
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