[Advisors] Let community re-think community

Peter Frampton administration.executive_director at lefca.org
Sun, 6 May 2012 22:55:12 -0400


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Garth, Gary, JvL et al

(I am saying what you have all said - just trying on a different colour)


When you have spent your life doing all the "right" things in the expectatio=
n of and "easy/good life". (whatever that is) and find yourself in debt up t=
o your eyeballs, with falling wages, crappy outlook for retirement, and to b=
oot your kids are f$&/ ...=20

Then what I hear on the soccer pitch is a retrenchment to what you know and a=
 blaming of the poor that boarders on paranoia and is, I believe, steeped in=
 fear of being so close to the same situation. That fear is real and well fo=
unded.  What is missing is any sense of empathy because it is ones one reali=
ty and deepest fear.  What we have is unrecognized anger - cause I did all t=
he right things.  You hate what you might become.

And online or in real life - that fear is driving business and political age=
ndas as it is used not to fix things but recreate "work" (what we used to ca=
ll jobs and now sometimes refer to as the disposable worker) and what it mea=
ns.  Ironically in order to make things better!

In there somewhere is the "morality" we must awaken. =20

Our history of "acceptance" came from our place of wealth and perception of o=
ur wealth.  We could afford to.  Many Canadians no longer have that luxury.

Methinks that is the challenge.  To acknowledge the fear and act.  But as wi=
th the 9 stages of grief - we are stuck in denial for a bit (not sure what s=
tage it is)

It is and is is not about fairness, Justice, vision and moral fortitude. =20=


I think it is just reality and fear - justifiable  fear.

So what is the counter to feeding it???  And make no mistake - it is being f=
ed by those who share the gear and act in old and trusted ways that are, how=
ever, no longer valid or helpful - but onward we go..... =20

If that is the root - then how do we become citizens again and not just tax p=
ayers and consumers (as our telecom policy describes us)???

Paf (please excuse the thumbs)

On 2012-05-06, at 8:27 PM, Gary Kenward <GaryKenward@eastlink.ca> wrote:

> Which has everything to do with the nature of democracy and people. And no=
thing particularly Canadian.
>=20
>=20
> On 12.05.06 3:01 PM, "James Van Leeuwen" <jvl@ventus.ca> wrote:
>=20
> Being 'less bad' than the Greeks or the Americans is utterly irrelevant to=
 the issue at hand.
>=20
> This isn't about beating ourselves up.=20
>=20
> It's about holding ourselves to account for what we are indisputably accou=
ntable for as democratic citizens.
>=20
> It's our government, and we get the governments we deserve.
>=20
>=20
> JvL
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 2012-05-06, at 11:03 AM, Gary Kenward wrote:
>=20
> Re: [Advisors] Let community re-think community=20
> As compared to say the US (have you followed the republican primary)? Or t=
he Greeks?
>=20
> Regardless, the first step is to stop beating ourselves up over what we ar=
e not.
>=20
> Gary
>=20
>=20
> On 12.05.06 1:32 PM, "James Van Leeuwen" <jvl@ventus.ca <x-msg://1163/jvl@=
ventus.ca> > wrote:
>=20
> It says that Canadians still don't have the emotional and intellectual mat=
urity for substantive discourse around morals and values.
>=20
> It says we need to grow up.
>=20
> James
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 2012-05-05, at 1:22 PM, Garth Graham wrote:
>=20
> > On 2012-05-05, at 12:19 AM, James Van Leeuwen wrote:
> >=20
> >> Garth asks:
> >> What kind of a society do we want? =E2=80=A6  I think the very essence o=
f the challenge we Canadians face today is that we have so many conflicting v=
isions of what we want our society to look like. =E2=80=A6  What we lack is s=
ufficient moral capital to bind the nation into a common and cohesive societ=
y with a meaningful purpose and a coherent vision for itself.  =E2=80=A6  Wi=
thout an appealing new moral vision and narrative to bind us together, colla=
boration and cooperation across groups will be next to impossible.
> >=20
> > James, I congratulate you on risking discussion of values when, from my e=
xperience, the tolerance of Canadians for matters philosophical is pretty li=
mited.  The first and only time I dared wade into that debate about narrativ=
e was in June of 1994 (see attached report of a workshop on electronic democ=
racy).  The report predicts, accurately, that without ongoing discussion of v=
alues there would be no real basis for effective public policies about Canad=
a's transformation into a digital society.  What does a silence that's now 1=
8 years deep say about the current content of public policy?
> >=20
> > GG
> >=20
> > <Values debate.rtf>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Advisors mailing list
> Advisors@tc.ca <x-msg://1163/Advisors@tc.ca>=20
> http://victoria.tc.ca/mailman/listinfo/advisors
>=20
>=20
> Gary Kenward
>=20
> THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS DOCUMENT IS PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Gary Kenward
>=20
> THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS DOCUMENT IS PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL

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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Garth, Gary, JvL et al</di=
v><div><br></div><div>(I am saying what you have all said - just trying on a=
 different colour)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>When you have spe=
nt your life doing all the "right" things in the expectation of and "easy/go=
od life". (whatever that is) and find yourself in debt up to your eyeballs, w=
ith falling wages, crappy outlook for retirement, and to boot your kids are f=
$&amp;/ ...&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Then what I hear on the soccer pi=
tch is a retrenchment to what you know and a blaming of the poor that boarde=
rs on paranoia and is, I believe, steeped in fear of being so close to the s=
ame situation. That fear is real and well founded. &nbsp;What is missing is a=
ny sense of empathy because it is ones one reality and deepest fear. &nbsp;W=
hat we have is unrecognized anger - cause I did all the right things. &nbsp;=
You hate what you might become.</div><div><br></div><div>And online or in re=
al life - that fear is driving business and political agendas as it is used n=
ot to fix things but recreate "work" (what we used to call jobs and now some=
times refer to as the disposable worker) and what it means. &nbsp;Ironically=
 in order to make things better!</div><div><br></div><div>In there somewhere=
 is the "morality" we must awaken. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Our histo=
ry of "acceptance" came from our place of wealth and perception of our wealt=
h. &nbsp;We could afford to. &nbsp;Many Canadians no longer have that luxury=
.</div><div><br></div><div>Methinks that is the challenge. &nbsp;To acknowle=
dge the fear and act. &nbsp;But as with the 9 stages of grief - we are stuck=
 in denial for a bit (not sure what stage it is)</div><div><br></div><div>It=
 is and is is not about fairness, Justice, vision and moral fortitude. &nbsp=
;</div><div><br></div><div>I think it is just reality and fear - justifiable=
 &nbsp;fear.</div><div><br></div><div>So what is the counter to feeding it??=
? &nbsp;And make no mistake - it is being fed by those who share the gear an=
d act in old and trusted ways that are, however, no longer valid or helpful -=
 but onward we go..... &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>If that is the root -=
 then how do we become citizens again and not just tax payers and consumers (=
as our telecom policy describes us)???</div><div><br>Paf (please excuse the t=
humbs)</div><div><br>On 2012-05-06, at 8:27 PM, Gary Kenward &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:GaryKenward@eastlink.ca">GaryKenward@eastlink.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br><b=
r></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>

<title>Re: [Advisors] Let community re-think community</title>


<font face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2pt">Which has everything to do with the nature of democracy and people. And=
 nothing particularly Canadian.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12.05.06 3:01 PM, "James Van Leeuwen" &lt;<a href=3D"jvl@ventus.ca">jvl@v=
entus.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</span></font><blockquote><font face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Being 'less bad' than the Greeks or the Ameri=
cans is utterly irrelevant to the issue at hand.<br>
<br>
This isn't about beating ourselves up. <br>
<br>
It's about holding ourselves to account for what we are indisputably account=
able for as democratic citizens.<br>
<br>
It's our government, and we get the governments we deserve.<br>
<br>
<br>
JvL<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2012-05-06, at 11:03 AM, Gary Kenward wrote:<br>
<br>
</span></font><blockquote><font face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Re: [Advisors] Let community re-think communi=
ty <br>
As compared to say the US (have you followed the republican primary)? Or the=
 Greeks?<br>
<br>
Regardless, the first step is to stop beating ourselves up over what we are n=
ot.<br>
<br>
Gary<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12.05.06 1:32 PM, "James Van Leeuwen" &lt;<a href=3D"jvl@ventus.ca">jvl@v=
entus.ca</a> &lt;x-msg:<a href=3D"//1163/jvl@ventus.ca">//1163/jvl@ventus.ca=
</a>&gt; &gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</span></font><blockquote><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><font face=3D"Conso=
las, Courier New, Courier">It says that Canadians still don't have the emoti=
onal and intellectual maturity for substantive discourse around morals and v=
alues.<br>
<br>
It says we need to grow up.<br>
<br>
James<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2012-05-05, at 1:22 PM, Garth Graham wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; On 2012-05-05, at 12:19 AM, James Van Leeuwen wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Garth asks:<br>
&gt;&gt; What kind of a society do we want? =E2=80=A6 &nbsp;I think the very=
 essence of the challenge we Canadians face today is that we have so many co=
nflicting visions of what we want our society to look like. =E2=80=A6 &nbsp;=
What we lack is sufficient moral capital to bind the nation into a common an=
d cohesive society with a meaningful purpose and a coherent vision for itsel=
f. &nbsp;=E2=80=A6 &nbsp;Without an appealing new moral vision and narrative=
 to bind us together, collaboration and cooperation across groups will be ne=
xt to impossible.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; James, I congratulate you on risking discussion of values when, from my=
 experience, the tolerance of Canadians for matters philosophical is pretty l=
imited. &nbsp;The first and only time I dared wade into that debate about na=
rrative was in June of 1994 (see attached report of a workshop on electronic=
 democracy). &nbsp;The report predicts, accurately, that without ongoing dis=
cussion of values there would be no real basis for effective public policies=
 about Canada's transformation into a digital society. &nbsp;What does a sil=
ence that's now 18 years deep say about the current content of public policy=
?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GG<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &lt;Values debate.rtf&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href=3D"Advisors@tc.ca">Advisors@tc.ca</a> &lt;x-msg:<a href=3D"//1163/Ad=
visors@tc.ca">//1163/Advisors@tc.ca</a>&gt; <br>
<a href=3D"http://victoria.tc.ca/mailman/listinfo/advisors">http://victoria.=
tc.ca/mailman/listinfo/advisors</a><br>
</font></span></blockquote><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><font face=3D"Cons=
olas, Courier New, Courier"><br>
</font><font color=3D"#000080"><font face=3D"Skia, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial=
"><br>
<hr align=3D"CENTER" size=3D"3" width=3D"95%"></font></font><font face=3D"Sk=
ia, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><font color=3D"#0A0032">Gary Kenward<br>
</font></font></span><font color=3D"#300094"><font size=3D"1"><font face=3D"=
Comic Sans MS"><span style=3D"font-size:8pt"><br>
</span></font></font></font><font size=3D"1"><span style=3D"font-size:8pt"><=
font color=3D"#FF0000"><font face=3D"Engravers MT">THE INFORMATION CONTAINED=
 IN THIS DOCUMENT IS PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL<br>
</font></font></span></font></blockquote><font face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Hel=
vetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><br>
<br>
</span></font></blockquote><font face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"=
><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></font><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><font color=3D"#000080"><font f=
ace=3D"Skia, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><br>
<hr align=3D"CENTER" size=3D"3" width=3D"95%"></font></font><font face=3D"Sk=
ia, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><font color=3D"#0A0032">Gary Kenward<br>
</font></font></span><font color=3D"#300094"><font size=3D"1"><font face=3D"=
Comic Sans MS"><span style=3D"font-size:8pt"><br>
</span></font></font></font><font size=3D"1"><span style=3D"font-size:8pt"><=
font color=3D"#FF0000"><font face=3D"Engravers MT">THE INFORMATION CONTAINED=
 IN THIS DOCUMENT IS PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL</font></font></span></font><fo=
nt face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt=
"><br>
</span></font>



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