[Advisors] Let community re-think community
Work
pframpton at lefca.org
Sun, 6 May 2012 23:14:51 -0400
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Very badly written after a day in the sun with soccer dads who have no clue w=
hat I do - but I think I got my point across=20
Paf
Peter Frampton=20
(mobile so curt).=20
On 2012-05-06, at 10:55 PM, Peter Frampton <administration.executive_directo=
r@lefca.org> wrote:
> Garth, Gary, JvL et al
>=20
> (I am saying what you have all said - just trying on a different colour)
>=20
>=20
> When you have spent your life doing all the "right" things in the expectat=
ion of and "easy/good life". (whatever that is) and find yourself in debt up=
to your eyeballs, with falling wages, crappy outlook for retirement, and to=
boot your kids are f$&/ ...=20
>=20
> Then what I hear on the soccer pitch is a retrenchment to what you know an=
d a blaming of the poor that boarders on paranoia and is, I believe, steeped=
in fear of being so close to the same situation. That fear is real and well=
founded. What is missing is any sense of empathy because it is ones one re=
ality and deepest fear. What we have is unrecognized anger - cause I did al=
l the right things. You hate what you might become.
>=20
> And online or in real life - that fear is driving business and political a=
gendas as it is used not to fix things but recreate "work" (what we used to c=
all jobs and now sometimes refer to as the disposable worker) and what it me=
ans. Ironically in order to make things better!
>=20
> In there somewhere is the "morality" we must awaken. =20
>=20
> Our history of "acceptance" came from our place of wealth and perception o=
f our wealth. We could afford to. Many Canadians no longer have that luxur=
y.
>=20
> Methinks that is the challenge. To acknowledge the fear and act. But as w=
ith the 9 stages of grief - we are stuck in denial for a bit (not sure what s=
tage it is)
>=20
> It is and is is not about fairness, Justice, vision and moral fortitude. =20=
>=20
> I think it is just reality and fear - justifiable fear.
>=20
> So what is the counter to feeding it??? And make no mistake - it is being=
fed by those who share the gear and act in old and trusted ways that are, h=
owever, no longer valid or helpful - but onward we go..... =20
>=20
> If that is the root - then how do we become citizens again and not just ta=
x payers and consumers (as our telecom policy describes us)???
>=20
> Paf (please excuse the thumbs)
>=20
> On 2012-05-06, at 8:27 PM, Gary Kenward <GaryKenward@eastlink.ca> wrote:
>=20
>> Which has everything to do with the nature of democracy and people. And n=
othing particularly Canadian.
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 12.05.06 3:01 PM, "James Van Leeuwen" <jvl@ventus.ca> wrote:
>>=20
>> Being 'less bad' than the Greeks or the Americans is utterly irrelevant t=
o the issue at hand.
>>=20
>> This isn't about beating ourselves up.=20
>>=20
>> It's about holding ourselves to account for what we are indisputably acco=
untable for as democratic citizens.
>>=20
>> It's our government, and we get the governments we deserve.
>>=20
>>=20
>> JvL
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 2012-05-06, at 11:03 AM, Gary Kenward wrote:
>>=20
>> Re: [Advisors] Let community re-think community=20
>> As compared to say the US (have you followed the republican primary)? Or t=
he Greeks?
>>=20
>> Regardless, the first step is to stop beating ourselves up over what we a=
re not.
>>=20
>> Gary
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 12.05.06 1:32 PM, "James Van Leeuwen" <jvl@ventus.ca <x-msg://1163/jvl=
@ventus.ca> > wrote:
>>=20
>> It says that Canadians still don't have the emotional and intellectual ma=
turity for substantive discourse around morals and values.
>>=20
>> It says we need to grow up.
>>=20
>> James
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 2012-05-05, at 1:22 PM, Garth Graham wrote:
>>=20
>> > On 2012-05-05, at 12:19 AM, James Van Leeuwen wrote:
>> >=20
>> >> Garth asks:
>> >> What kind of a society do we want? =E2=80=A6 I think the very essence=
of the challenge we Canadians face today is that we have so many conflictin=
g visions of what we want our society to look like. =E2=80=A6 What we lack i=
s sufficient moral capital to bind the nation into a common and cohesive soc=
iety with a meaningful purpose and a coherent vision for itself. =E2=80=A6 =
Without an appealing new moral vision and narrative to bind us together, co=
llaboration and cooperation across groups will be next to impossible.
>> >=20
>> > James, I congratulate you on risking discussion of values when, from my=
experience, the tolerance of Canadians for matters philosophical is pretty l=
imited. The first and only time I dared wade into that debate about narrati=
ve was in June of 1994 (see attached report of a workshop on electronic demo=
cracy). The report predicts, accurately, that without ongoing discussion of=
values there would be no real basis for effective public policies about Can=
ada's transformation into a digital society. What does a silence that's now=
18 years deep say about the current content of public policy?
>> >=20
>> > GG
>> >=20
>> > <Values debate.rtf>
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Advisors mailing list
>> Advisors@tc.ca <x-msg://1163/Advisors@tc.ca>=20
>> http://victoria.tc.ca/mailman/listinfo/advisors
>>=20
>>=20
>> Gary Kenward
>>=20
>> THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS DOCUMENT IS PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Gary Kenward
>>=20
>> THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS DOCUMENT IS PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL
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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Very badly written after a=
day in the sun with soccer dads who have no clue what I do - but I think I g=
ot my point across <br><br>Paf<div>Peter Frampton </div><div>(mobi=
le so curt). </div></div><div><br>On 2012-05-06, at 10:55 PM, Peter Fra=
mpton <<a href=3D"mailto:administration.executive_director@lefca.org">adm=
inistration.executive_director@lefca.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></=
div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div>Garth, Gary, JvL et al</div><div><br=
></div><div>(I am saying what you have all said - just trying on a different=
colour)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>When you have spent your li=
fe doing all the "right" things in the expectation of and "easy/good life". (=
whatever that is) and find yourself in debt up to your eyeballs, with fallin=
g wages, crappy outlook for retirement, and to boot your kids are f$&/ .=
.. </div><div><br></div><div>Then what I hear on the soccer pitch is a r=
etrenchment to what you know and a blaming of the poor that boarders on para=
noia and is, I believe, steeped in fear of being so close to the same situat=
ion. That fear is real and well founded. What is missing is any sense o=
f empathy because it is ones one reality and deepest fear. What we hav=
e is unrecognized anger - cause I did all the right things. You hate w=
hat you might become.</div><div><br></div><div>And online or in real life - t=
hat fear is driving business and political agendas as it is used not to fix t=
hings but recreate "work" (what we used to call jobs and now sometimes refer=
to as the disposable worker) and what it means. Ironically in order t=
o make things better!</div><div><br></div><div>In there somewhere is the "mo=
rality" we must awaken. </div><div><br></div><div>Our history of "acce=
ptance" came from our place of wealth and perception of our wealth. We=
could afford to. Many Canadians no longer have that luxury.</div><div=
><br></div><div>Methinks that is the challenge. To acknowledge the fea=
r and act. But as with the 9 stages of grief - we are stuck in denial f=
or a bit (not sure what stage it is)</div><div><br></div><div>It is and is i=
s not about fairness, Justice, vision and moral fortitude. </div><div>=
<br></div><div>I think it is just reality and fear - justifiable fear.=
</div><div><br></div><div>So what is the counter to feeding it??? And m=
ake no mistake - it is being fed by those who share the gear and act in old a=
nd trusted ways that are, however, no longer valid or helpful - but onward w=
e go..... </div><div><br></div><div>If that is the root - then how do w=
e become citizens again and not just tax payers and consumers (as our teleco=
m policy describes us)???</div><div><br>Paf (please excuse the thumbs)</div>=
<div><br>On 2012-05-06, at 8:27 PM, Gary Kenward <<a href=3D"mailto:GaryK=
enward@eastlink.ca">GaryKenward@eastlink.ca</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div=
></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
<title>Re: [Advisors] Let community re-think community</title>
<font face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2pt">Which has everything to do with the nature of democracy and people. And=
nothing particularly Canadian.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12.05.06 3:01 PM, "James Van Leeuwen" <<a href=3D"jvl@ventus.ca">jvl@v=
entus.ca</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</span></font><blockquote><font face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Being 'less bad' than the Greeks or the Ameri=
cans is utterly irrelevant to the issue at hand.<br>
<br>
This isn't about beating ourselves up. <br>
<br>
It's about holding ourselves to account for what we are indisputably account=
able for as democratic citizens.<br>
<br>
It's our government, and we get the governments we deserve.<br>
<br>
<br>
JvL<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2012-05-06, at 11:03 AM, Gary Kenward wrote:<br>
<br>
</span></font><blockquote><font face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Re: [Advisors] Let community re-think communi=
ty <br>
As compared to say the US (have you followed the republican primary)? Or the=
Greeks?<br>
<br>
Regardless, the first step is to stop beating ourselves up over what we are n=
ot.<br>
<br>
Gary<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12.05.06 1:32 PM, "James Van Leeuwen" <<a href=3D"jvl@ventus.ca">jvl@v=
entus.ca</a> <x-msg:<a href=3D"//1163/jvl@ventus.ca">//1163/jvl@ventus.ca=
</a>> > wrote:<br>
<br>
</span></font><blockquote><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><font face=3D"Conso=
las, Courier New, Courier">It says that Canadians still don't have the emoti=
onal and intellectual maturity for substantive discourse around morals and v=
alues.<br>
<br>
It says we need to grow up.<br>
<br>
James<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2012-05-05, at 1:22 PM, Garth Graham wrote:<br>
<br>
> On 2012-05-05, at 12:19 AM, James Van Leeuwen wrote:<br>
> <br>
>> Garth asks:<br>
>> What kind of a society do we want? =E2=80=A6 I think the very=
essence of the challenge we Canadians face today is that we have so many co=
nflicting visions of what we want our society to look like. =E2=80=A6 =
What we lack is sufficient moral capital to bind the nation into a common an=
d cohesive society with a meaningful purpose and a coherent vision for itsel=
f. =E2=80=A6 Without an appealing new moral vision and narrative=
to bind us together, collaboration and cooperation across groups will be ne=
xt to impossible.<br>
> <br>
> James, I congratulate you on risking discussion of values when, from my=
experience, the tolerance of Canadians for matters philosophical is pretty l=
imited. The first and only time I dared wade into that debate about na=
rrative was in June of 1994 (see attached report of a workshop on electronic=
democracy). The report predicts, accurately, that without ongoing dis=
cussion of values there would be no real basis for effective public policies=
about Canada's transformation into a digital society. What does a sil=
ence that's now 18 years deep say about the current content of public policy=
?<br>
> <br>
> GG<br>
> <br>
> <Values debate.rtf><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Advisors mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"Advisors@tc.ca">Advisors@tc.ca</a> <x-msg:<a href=3D"//1163/Ad=
visors@tc.ca">//1163/Advisors@tc.ca</a>> <br>
<a href=3D"http://victoria.tc.ca/mailman/listinfo/advisors">http://victoria.=
tc.ca/mailman/listinfo/advisors</a><br>
</font></span></blockquote><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><font face=3D"Cons=
olas, Courier New, Courier"><br>
</font><font color=3D"#000080"><font face=3D"Skia, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial=
"><br>
<hr align=3D"CENTER" size=3D"3" width=3D"95%"></font></font><font face=3D"Sk=
ia, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><font color=3D"#0A0032">Gary Kenward<br>
</font></font></span><font color=3D"#300094"><font size=3D"1"><font face=3D"=
Comic Sans MS"><span style=3D"font-size:8pt"><br>
</span></font></font></font><font size=3D"1"><span style=3D"font-size:8pt"><=
font color=3D"#FF0000"><font face=3D"Engravers MT">THE INFORMATION CONTAINED=
IN THIS DOCUMENT IS PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL<br>
</font></font></span></font></blockquote><font face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Hel=
vetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><br>
<br>
</span></font></blockquote><font face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"=
><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></font><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><font color=3D"#000080"><font f=
ace=3D"Skia, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><br>
<hr align=3D"CENTER" size=3D"3" width=3D"95%"></font></font><font face=3D"Sk=
ia, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><font color=3D"#0A0032">Gary Kenward<br>
</font></font></span><font color=3D"#300094"><font size=3D"1"><font face=3D"=
Comic Sans MS"><span style=3D"font-size:8pt"><br>
</span></font></font></font><font size=3D"1"><span style=3D"font-size:8pt"><=
font color=3D"#FF0000"><font face=3D"Engravers MT">THE INFORMATION CONTAINED=
IN THIS DOCUMENT IS PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL</font></font></span></font><fo=
nt face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt=
"><br>
</span></font>
</div></blockquote></div></blockquote></body></html>=
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